[Discussion] Location Research

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Countries

Portugal

Positives:

  • Fast growing and great for investment

  • Extremely friendly local people

  • Very low crime rate

  • Great weather for 9 months a year, and some hot sunny days even in the middle of winter

  • Zero taxes on income earned abroad while living in Portugal (relevant if switching residency)

  • Zero taxes on cryptocurrency

Negatives:

  • Government red tape is notoriously slow

  • Expensive utilities (water and gas)

  • Second hand vehicles are approximately 50% more expensive and its very difficult to import from outside, especially the UK. They can be drive for 3 months without importing

Setubal

Positives:

  • Property prices are rising quickly, with the council eager to develop the area just outside of the town. Large plots of land are available at low prices for their proximity to the town, and they will almost certainly increase in value protecting the value of our investments.

  • A new Lisbon airport is being built and will be only 30 mins from Setubal, making the town’s location more desirable and accessible

  • Incredible beaches. Two of Portugal’s top rated beaches are nearby

  • Huge national park right next to the town to the North, and nature reserve to the South

  • Great air quality from the national park

  • Vibrant and growing social scene

  • Council investing heavily in arts and culture

  • Lovely old town center reminiscent of an old Italian village

  • Proper historical village with castle 10 mins bus ride away

  • Beautiful beaches along with high capacity modern resort and event center on a sandbar peninsula 30 mins by boat away. Boats go every 10 mins.

  • Peninsula protects the city from wind and waves giving calm water on one side for swimming, and rough water for water sports on the other side

  • Regular and cheap train going direct to Lisbon for anything you can’t find there, takes 1 hour

  • Has friendly dolphins living in the bay

  • One small beach is in the town and walkable (others are 5 mins by bus, 30 mins by boat, or a short drive/Uber)

  • Practically non-existent crime rates

  • Very friendly local community

  • Tourism capacity is limited and fairly small, meaning it has the energy, events and income from tourism but is not a ‘tourist town’ with life centered around the people living there, and beaches where you can find secluded spots even in the peak of summer

  • Protected from sea-level rise due to climate catastrophe - although the delta to the south of the town is likely to lose some land and should be avoided. The 14km of sandy beaches along the Troia peninsula is expected to shrink (although it has been raised and expanded in the past and almost certainly will be maintained)

  • Lovely little beach in the town and coastline

Negatives:

  • Poor architectural choices in the past led to many ugly high rise buildings on the edge of town, which are unlikely to go away. Fortunately due to the friendly Portuguese culture these still feel very social and safe places to walk around at night. Just not attractive to look at.

  • Waterfront in the center of town is a bit dull. Hopefully it will be developed as its a perfect location for nice cafe’s and resteraunts which are mostly on the other side of the roads.

Other Locations Examined

Porto

Positives:

  • Lovely city and people

  • Property prices still rising

  • Airport is an International hub with regular cheap flights to many locations (Often 7e to London)

  • Mostly shielded from rising waters due to climate emergency

Negatives:

  • A lot of rain

  • Surprisingly cold winters

  • High humidity causing damp damage and allergies

Lisbon

Center of Lisbon is highly developed so needs to be outside the city. We mostly considered south of the river

Positives:

  • 20-30 mins to the center

  • Easy connection to a vibrant arts and culture scene

  • Airport is an International hub with regular cheap flights to many locations (Often 7e to London)

Negatives:

  • Extremely hot unpleasant summers in the city center, with most walking being uphill or downhill

  • Very crowded city

  • Any land we found in a decent location is expensive, or threatened by rising waters

  • High crime rates (for Portugal, but still low by international standards)

Locations Requirements

Andy and Hande:

  • Max 30 mins cycling from a town so Hande doesn’t feel isolated

  • Has a reasonable amount of green open land for nature and trees

  • Has access to water, or is possible to create a swimming lake and beach, or swimming pool

Possible Types of Land

Portugal divides their land into 3 main categories. Urban, Rustic, Industrial.

Urban:

  • Most Expensive

  • Can build on all (or most) of the land

  • Open green space comes at a premium in this type

Industrial:

  • Legalities likely be difficult with what we plan to use it for

Rustic:

  • Usually it is allowed to build permanent structures on 10% of the land, the rest should remain green

  • Any existing structures can be rebuilt, even if it’s just a pile of rubble

Our most likely option is Rustic. Ideally with a few already built buildings on it. Temporary structures, such as Yurts, eco-pods, wood cabins (with wheels), buses, camper vans, old boats, hammocks, can be brought in to increase capacity of attendee’s who can stay there, or to bootstrap a cool place for events while we make plans for fixed construction.

Examples

Please note these are just for illustration purposes of the type of property available. I doubt any of these is a perfect match for our dream community center, although i’m also sure all of these could be turned into something special with the right positivity and enthusiasm.

  1. Giant plot of land, 480,025 m² for 770,000 euros. 30 mins cycle from Setubal and near the castle: https://www.idealista.pt/en/imovel/31193613/

Land notes:

  • At our distance limit and would feel a little disconnected even with electric bicycles

  • Absolutely giant and would take a long time before we are able to really use it all

  • Buildings need to be rebuilt

  • Due to its size parts of the land could be sold off in the future at profit if needed to fund projects

  1. Well located plot of land, 6,200 m2 for 136,000 euros. Inside the National Park and with quick easy access to the city. 15mins by bike: Land plot for sale in estrada Nacional 10, km 3, Parque Natural da Arrábida, Setúbal — idealista

Land notes:

  • Non-building so probably all structures would need to be temporary.

  • Fantastic location

  1. Former resort or campsite next to beach and near Setubal. 16,500 m² for 750,000 euros. Land plot for sale in Urb. Rua Rio das Patacas - Casal das Figueiras, Santiago (Sesimbra), Sesimbra — idealista

Land Notes:

  • Looks to be in poor condition

  • Its unclear what buildings are there from the photos

  • Location looks good

Update 1:

Interesting plot of land: Land plot for sale in rua da Terceira Idade, Gâmbia - Pontes - Alto da Guerra, Setúbal — idealista

Pros:

  • Cheap

  • Large area available for building but with majority still green

  • 15 mins cycle to town center

  • Probable high resale value if needed due to permission to build 5 houses on land

  • Long term project could involve building one building at a time with 5 houses around the edge of land and a lake with beach in the middle. It would then give future security as it would be easy to divide up and sell off parts of the property if ever needed.

Cons:

  • On opposite side of the town to main nature reserve

Legal Structures

I believe its possible to set the center up as a ‘members club’, akin to a gym. This would mean everyone who visits for the 1st time would have to pay a membership fee, but that could for example be 1 euro per year or baked into a giveaway like a t-shirt.

  • That would then give us the flexibility to charge for events, workshops like a gym charges for classes.

  • Have different membership options

  • Operate small commercial enterprise on the land, like a cafe for our members